Though he’s
been around basically forever, I first met Jaaron Sanford 5 or 6 years ago when
Great Rev got to play with his band All These Years and Nothing a couple times.
I was immediately struck by the fact that though he is a big, scary ass looking
dude, he is simultaneously one of the nicest, most down to Earth people I had
ever met. Not only that, but he truly loves and cares about hardcore, and has a
similar philosophy/outlook as me; that while the music can and should be as aggressive
as possible, we should be welcoming to each other and that there’s no place for
the violent posturing that is all too common.
Jaaron’s
current project is called Enemy of Creation, a metallic hardcore powerhouse who
dropped an incredible 6 song demo last year. Borrowing heavily from bands like
All Out War, early Walls of Jericho, etc., they are truly a force to be
reckoned with. Great Rev had to play after them a few months ago, and we definitely
should have played before them, haha.
Anyway, I
was super stoked when Jaaron agreed to chat about his life spent in the
hardcore scene, and even more stoked as we got into things; as you’ll read, he
is a person who is incredibly honest about the path he’s travelled, both the parts
he is proud of, and the parts he is not so proud of.
I always
like to start off by learning
about a person's background, so talk a little bit about your family, your
childhood, major events that may have impacted you as a kid.
Well, I was born in New Jersey - but moved to New York when I
was 4 - about 60 miles north of the city. My father was a bouncer at concerts
when I was a kid - at the Capitol Theater in New Jersey. He also did shows at
Giant’s Stadium and shit like that. He was a huge Dead Head and that’s how he
met my mom; bouncing a Dead show. So music has been a huge part of me my entire
life.
Well my mother died when I was in 8th grade and I immediately
started doing drugs and drinking and hanging with a rough crowd…got involved
with stealing from cars and shit like that. When I turned 16, my dad moved me
to Indiana - where my mom’s sister offered to help my dad care for me and my
younger brother, give my dad the support he needed to raise a family on his
own.
So now I’m a New Yorker turned Hoosier. I’ve actually lived
here longer now than I lived there....so I guess I’m a full-on Hoosier. I was
always into doing bands. In 4th grade I started my first band, I was into metal
big-time. Eventually that kind of faded into punk rock and then hardcore.
It wasn’t until I went back and visited my friends from NY
when I was 18 - and saw their awesome and amazing hardcore bands and hardcore
scene - that I started really getting into hardcore music; like the history and
ideology and listening to it as an art form and lifestyle rather than just
heavy music. I came home from that trip on a Greyhound bus and wrote pages and
pages of lyrics and also jotted down anyone I knew who played an instrument -
because I wanted what they had. I wanted to sing in a hardcore band. It’s odd
to say it - but that trip was a life-changing experience. I got off the bus and
started calling everyone and piecing together a band.
Holy shit
I am so sorry to hear about your mom.
So how
did you deal with not only that loss, but moving to a totally new environment?
It was rough. I kind of flew off the deep end and I did a
bunch of stuff that wasn’t a good representation of who I was. Like I said
above I got into drugs, also got into stealing from cars. I was acting out
pretty bad. Then moving to an entire different section of the country - that
was about as different as it can get, and simultaneously trying to become a
better version of what I became before I moved - while also trying to make new
friends and fit in. It proved very difficult, but I made it work and I lived
and stayed out of trouble. The plus side was that I was 45 minutes from
Chicago, so that was the light at the end of the tunnel to me. Miraculously I
found some dudes that were also into hardcore and we started hanging and going
to shows in Chicago.
What
bands/venues did you experience at age 18 that made such a huge impact on you?
Some of the bands from back home in NY that were huge to me
were Inner Dam, All Out War, Beneath The Remains, Drowning Room, Section 8, One
King Down, Eye 2 Eye, Divided by Hate, Groundzero. Those were the bands that
set me in the right direction getting me into hardcore. I remember having All
Out Wars Demo tape when I was young in 93’ living back in NY - it was just a
metal band to me, as I didn’t know what hardcore really was then. Very
influential to me musically.
Venues that I got to see hardcore shows at back in NY that
impacted me were The Chance Theater in Poughkeepsie, NY and The Avalon in
Newburgh. My buddy played drums in Inner Dam and also for a short period of
time played in Shai Hulud as well. I would travel back to New York for shows on
the regular.
Then the venues in Indiana/Chicago area that impacted me upon
arrival to the area and the hardcore scene here were, first and foremost - The
Fireside Bowl: hands down the best shows of my life were watched there. Also the
Arlington Heights Knights of Columbus, The Metro and finally The Westport
Community Center in Burns Harbor, Indiana. Those 4 places represent the start
of my life in the hardcore scene here in the Midwest. Every great show and
person I met in the scene was at one of them four places. The first show I ever
played in Chicago was at the Fireside Bowl.
I feel lucky to have been involved in the scene I was involved
in at the time I was in it. I’m also very grateful my NY friends gave me the
knowledge and desire to seek out the same thing they had, but here in Chicago
and Northwest Indiana. It helped me dive deep into the genre and help create a
scene here in LaPorte.
Oh man, when
I was in school in Grand Rapids we would go to Chicago as often as coming back
home to Detroit, so I'm sure we were in the same room a lot as we frequented a
lot of the Fireside and Arlington Heights shows.
So talk a
little bit about building that scene in NW Indiana. What bands (if any) were
around/started up at that time? As far as your music, I know did Blood In/Blood
Out....were there any bands before that for you or nah?
I’m sure we def were man...2 great spots in a great era.
The first hardcore band I stumbled onto here in Northwest
Indiana was - Love You Face Down (or LYFD). It was my bass player from Blood
In/Blood Out’s band before I met him. There was this huge Korn/Limp Bizkit
influenced music scene here...it was awful. I went to a “party” that was also a
show and saw Dave’s band. They were awesome. Huge influence by Downset. Come to
find out they did a Quicksand cover and an Inside Out cover, so I knew then
that they weren’t part of this horrible “rap rock” trend happening here.
Meanwhile I had started my first hardcore band at that time,
called - Merge - which I sang in. It was actually with Shane from Playing
Enemy/Great Falls. It was very “meh” - could’ve been a lot better. We were
young in the scene and were still “soul searching”. I eventually switched to
drums because we couldn’t find a drummer and changed the sound a little bit and
also the band name changed as well. It was now called Haulic. We were still
quite “meh” sounding hahaha. We played some shows here and there with Love You
Face Down, and became friends with them.
As we got closer as bands - Dave and I realized we lived pretty
close to each other so we started hanging out. We got pretty close. At some point,
we decided we wanted to do something together, something positive to impact the
scene around here, since there was a huge tough-guy jock thing happening here
at shows. Dudes were being dicks and bullying kids and shit like that. So we
threw together the beginnings of a zine. We just wanted to put something out
there in retaliation to these guys. We called the zine “Right Arm Death
Threat”. We used a rough drawing of a silhouette of a hardcore singer holding a
mic to his mouth.
The name and image was basically saying with the mic comes the
power to lead change through dropping knowledge on people. Letting them know
it’s not okay to be an asshole and that we are all in this together. A singer
in a hardcore band can be a huge positive influence and driving force of a
scene. So that’s the story behind the name. We got a PO BOX and everything and
began constructing this project.
At the exact same time, we started jamming together with a
couple a local brothers that were into metal punk and hardcore. And we were
doing the same thing with this band as we were with the zine - we wanted to
call out these assholes and promote a positive scene. Strong anti-bullying
messages basically. So, as it came time to name this band - the brothers we were
jamming with (Joe and Kenny Whicker) suggested we use the name we had come up
with for the zine - Right Arm Death Threat - for the band name.
And so began mine and Dave’s first step in our journey
together. We went right to work writing songs against this crap and calling
people out that were bigger and badder than us every step of the way. We felt
invincible because we had a wonderful melting pot of a scene behind us at every
show. From metal dudes to hippies to indie rockers to punk rockers. We did this
band 1998 until 2002 - when we started Blood In/Blood Out, a band I did until
last year - still do it from time to time, just to hang with the guys in the
band since we never see each other really.
An example of calling these guys out is - I remember one show
where some big hammer skin Nazis showed up and were standing in the back with
their arms crossed waiting for trouble and we must’ve been like 19 & 20
years old and not even close to these dudes size and we weren’t tough at
all....but one of the kids at the show came and told me they were out there in
the back, so we stopped the song and I said something along the lines of “This
next song is called ‘Open Your Eyes’ and it’s for these racist motherfuckers in
the back - get out of here - you ain’t fucking welcome!” And to my surprise
they basically put up their middle fingers and walked out.
Oh
man....I definitely feel like I saw Right Arm a time or two back in the day, or
at least saw the name around a bit. How much did you guys do in terms of
releases, shows and tours?
Right Arm Death Threat - we basically did a few demo tapes to
start off with - I believe there were 3, then put them all out as our first CD,
same recordings and all. Then we did a split CD with our good friends from
Dowagiac, Michigan called Triple F (they’re now called Knee Deep In The Dead
though) where we did two originals and a cover of CIV “Trust Slips Through Your
Hands” And also a cover of Judas Priest “Breaking the Law”. Then we did a split
CD with our friends from Southern Illinois - The Vice Dolls. We did 3 originals
and a cover of a Vice Dolls song. Then we released our final CD called “Last
Stand” on the day of our final show.
We rushed them - did them all DIY (did everything DIY in that
band actually) but seems we put little effort into the packaging and recorded
them all on our computer and never checked the sound quality. They were trash.
Some people didn’t even have any music on their copy of it. So I’m going to
re-release them, with a little bit more TLC - hopefully this year. It deserves
a proper release I think.
Show wise we were playing Chicago and Indiana all the time.
Literally too much in our hometown - but it was fun as hell. We were booking
shows in our hometown for touring bands all the time too. We never toured per
say - but we ventured out and about to St. Louis, Louisville, Kansas City, Southern
Illinois, Quad Cities, Iowa and Milwaukee. So we got out and about and played
some fun shows in some great scenes, met some great people that we are still friends
with to this day.
This transitions me in to the next part - we wanted to start
playing out more and do more stuff with the band - like the bands that were
coming through were doing shows for - but our drummer at the time (whom we love
dearly) was having his second and third kids and really couldn’t do much of
that. We wanted to tour. So we decided that instead of getting our 4th drummer
and teaching the songs all over again, why don’t we just find a new drummer and
start from scratch? Write new songs. This way we could also get rid of the band
name that we all hated - Right Arm Death Threat - and get something we liked a
little more. So off we went. Joe and Dave (guitarist and bassist) started
trying out drummers in 2002 when I was off on tour playing guitar for The Vice
Dolls. I came back and we tried some more out. We eventually got the right
drummer and went to work.
Talk
about the transition from Right Arm to BIBO. What were you looking to continue
going from one project to the next, and what did you want to do differently?
Ultimately, the goal was to start a band that could do
more...and that’s what we did. But the next thing was that we were tinkering
with getting a second guitar player and maybe playing a little heavier then
what we had previously. Maybe mixing in a little more metal influenced
hardcore. Where bands like Ensign, Sick Of It All, Strike Anywhere and even Stretch
Armstrong were big influences on RADT...bands like XdiscipleX A.D., Irate,
Buried Alive, And All Out War were more what we had envisioned moving forward I
think.
We did all the stuff we wanted. What we also got was to be
around some people that might have swayed us (mostly myself) into directions
that were not necessarily who we were really. Like for instance I can remember
a show we were playing where a band we were friends with, who was playing
before us.... I remember them saying “Blood In/ Blood Out’s next and you guys
better fuck shit up for them or they’ll beat your fucking asses” and we would
look at each other and shrug our shoulders and were like “Ok? Where is that
shit coming from?”
Well eventually, we started acting like the idiots we were
being portrayed as. We were easily influenced into being pieces of shit I
suppose…getting into fights and egging on fights that broke out while we were
playing - rather than stop playing and try breaking that shit up like we used
to. It was becoming clearer and clearer that I was becoming/had become the
person I hated when I started off on my journey through hardcore - those douche
bag jock tough guys. I was acting like them.
Eventually shows were spent with us drinking and driving -
getting drunk on the way to the show or getting drunk in the van during the
show, rather than listening to any other bands. It was sucky and we were
soulless. We eventually just called it a day on the band and started moving on
musically in our own separate ways - but we still got asked to play shows. So
we would get together and do one or two shows a year. This would always turn
out to be a wonderful experience - as now we were getting together and enjoying
each other’s company, having fun again in the band, watching other bands again,
not getting stupid over-the-top wasted and getting into trouble at every show -
we were older and outgrew that little kid bullshit we were involved in for the
most part. So now when we play- it’s literally to have fun again.
Unfortunately, the band name carries some serious negative
connotation because of how we acted 15 years ago. We lost some good friends
along the way because of dumb shit we did - which I don’t blame people at all
for cutting ties with us. But today when we do that it’s for the right reasons
again.
So it
sounds like you guys really grew up a lot during the Blood In/Blood Out period.
Were there any particular moments/incidents where you stepped back and realized
"Damn, this is not who I am" or was it more of a gradual thing?
To answer the first part of that, I’d have to say the “a-ha
moment” was actually when we stopped doing the band the first time. I
personally had a chance to collect my thoughts and reflect a bit at the entire
band’s existence - at all the shit we had did in the past - good and bad. My mind
was definitely clearer at that time and I could see the entire path of devastation
(for a lack of a better word) for what it was. It’s very hard to see things
clearly when you’re in the middle of it, in any situation in life really. So
once you remove yourself from any situation - the clouds part and the sun comes
out, so to speak.
Just yesterday,
a friend posted about a similar issue where today because of the internet
people don't really have an opportunity to make mistakes and grow....if you
fuck up, you get called out and your band gets "cancelled" or
whatever.
While I guess I personally lean towards the side of "Maybe just
don't be an idiot in the first place, you should know better", I also
realize that in a lot of cases we are talking about young kids whose band might
be getting exposure for the first time and they didn't know how to deal with
some of that limelight, however small it may be. As somebody who has been on
both sides of that coin, how do you view this issue/how would you advise young
kids coming up?
Yeah I’d have to say your buddy is right. Today it’s virtually
impossible to fuck up, and grow from it -that old school “live and learn from
our mistakes” mentality. Everything we do is under constant scrutiny for sure,
with the social media thing so much part of our everyday lives these days. I
also agree with you - don’t do dumb shit in the first place.
But as young kids in hardcore scene, a lot of us get so
wrapped up in image, and trying to “prove ourselves”. It sucks; we do it
without even knowing it sometimes. It’s like all the crap we hated about school
and the social norm growing up....and then our escape from that - the hardcore
scene - turns out to foster the exact same practices we tried to get away from.
We want to be “ourselves” so bad and have our own identity - but we still copy
what’s around us to “fit in”....in the scene where we are all supposed to just
“fit in” without trying. It’s supposed to be the scene that welcomes us
outcasts of society with open arms without us fitting in to a certain mold.
I don’t know, I feel that we will constantly have stupid
issues in hardcore - like gangs in hardcore and then the bands that are friends
with the gangs that try too hard to be like them and act like them to impress
them. But such is life. I would say, just stand your ground on your beliefs no
matter how unpopular it is at the time - you will have a rocky path sometimes
but you eventually find your way to the people who are like minded. Because
there definitely are more good, positive-minded people in hardcore and life
than negative. It’s so easy to follow the crowd. It really is. Just don’t get
wrapped up in taking that easy way when you know it’s questionable to your core
beliefs.
So the
sonic territory of your bands has definitely ebbed and flowed over the years
from the melodic to the heavy and back again. After BIBO your main band for a
little bit was All These Years and Nothing. How much of starting that band had
to do with a desire to go back to that sound, versus wanting to turn away from
the tough guy stuff you fell prey to during your time with BIBO?
It was a combination of the two actually. It was literally
formed as a direct retaliation against that tough guy sound/scene. The lyrics
were intentionally against that scene and that mentality, in a very blunt way.
And then secondary, it definitely was a means to get back to playing the
melodic hardcore punk style we loved and grew up on.
To be honest, we still would be doing that band if it wasn’t
for some stupid shit between my drummer and guitarist. That band was so
cathartic. It took me full circle to where I was calling out stupid tough guy
bullshit again like I was when I was younger.
Wow, glad you brought that band up - it usually floats under everyone’s
radar - when I feel it easily was the most relevant band I’ve done since 2002 -
as far as when it comes to the message it was putting out there.
Alright
so with Enemy of Creation the pendulum has definitely swung back to the
heavy....what was the impetus to start this new project?
Well, my best friend and bass player of 20 years, Dave, was
moving away to Arkansas. I knew that my time being in a band with him was over
after this move happens....and we have been in almost all the same projects
together since we met in ‘97. So it was rough to move on from him mentally. But
I knew I wanted to play music still obviously, so it was time to find new band
members.
Starting out all I knew is I wanted to play guitar again and
write music more in line with what I grew up writing - whether that was doing a
more basic death metal band like Obituary style.....or doing a thrashier metal
band like Slayer/Sepultura....or doing a punk band like Off!/Dillinger Four....or
doing an old metallic hardcore band like Harvest/Bloodlet.
I knew those were my “bread and butter” styles that I could
write in and play well on guitar. So I eventually narrowed it down to metallic
hardcore style because it seemed those riffs were coming most natural to me. I
then called my buddy Scott that I’ve known since I was in 11th grade. We played
together in my first ever Indiana band - THC. It was a thrash band like DRI
style. None of us smoked weed and it was a dumb name....but we were in high
school so what can you expect?
Later, in 2000, Scott and myself formed a metallic hardcore
band with my friend Parker on vocals (he would later play guitar in Wings of
Scarlet and Undying) - we were called Burning Season. We put out a 5-song demo,
played about five shows, and stopped for the day due to our distance apart from
each other, but I knew Scott wanted to jam again, He was always kind of on the
sidelines waiting to jam again, and I knew he had time to dedicate - so I
contacted him and saw if he was interested in doing a band that was kind of a throwback
in a sense to the shit we started in 2000 with Burning Season.
He was immediately 100% down. I knew it would be fun to head
down that path again, of metallic hardcore. But as we started piecing the band
together with other dudes, we started getting everyone else’s input on band
direction and the band kind of made its own direction. We all like punk, metal
and hardcore - but the metal side took us over basically. I mean we still have
hardcore songs, but a metal version of it, I’d say.
How do
you feel EOC is similar and different from your past work?
I feel it’s similar only in it’s a heavy hardcore band. I’ve
been there and done this style of band before. It’s nothing new musically. It’s
different in my involvement with riff writing and how we piece together songs.
I was probably just a small percentage in helping with riff writing in Blood
In/Blood Out and All These Years and Nothing, since I was the singer in those
bands. Whereas now I am more like 95% of the main riff writer. Towards the end
of Blood In/Blood Out we were just showing up to band practice with our own
songs fully written - showing the other dudes how to play them, it was kind of
boring.
In this band I’ll just bring a riff or two that I like and we
all form the song together, just from that little bit. It’s also different in
the mentality. Like these days, I’d much rather play to a room of metal head
kids head banging and shoulder moshing than hardcore kids dancing, and I feel
this is the perfect band for that segway to happen.
What
lessons from your previous bands do you feel like you are trying to keep in
mind with this venture, be they in terms of actual song-writing, how the band
carries itself, etc.?
Songwriting I usually get wrapped up in the formula of riff a,
riff b, riff c, riff d, end of song. I didn’t like repeating riffs. I hated
that intro, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, breakdown format, forever. In this band,
I’m trying to be more open to do whatever feels right and not be close-minded
to dumb shit like that. At practice we basically let the song take us wherever
we feel it’s taking us. Whether it’s a more basic song format or it be never
repeating a single riff.
As far as the way the band carries itself - image isn’t shit.
Image is important to kids trying to “make a name for themselves” and trying to
“prove themselves”. Image may sell - but no one in this band is trying to sell
anything. We basically give all our merch away for cost. We can easily just
play one show a month, and that show can be in front of 15 people and we can never
make a dime, and we would be happy with what we are doing.
We are just approaching this band as - we want to make music
we enjoy... and honestly it’s also about meeting nice new people and developing
friendships. I’ve been really into bands before in the past, and then I’ve met
said bands when we played with them, and found out they were total arrogant self-important
douche bags. I just can’t listen to them ever again after that. Seeing this has
helped me keep myself in line with what’s important - being a nice person and
forming meaningful relationships. I’d much rather play a few shows, get to know
good people and get into the bands that are filled with good people and support
them. That’s just the point I’m at in my life. I don’t have time to waste on
shitty people in the scene anymore. And we in the band, all feel the same way...just wanna jam
with some good people, develop some decent new friendships and write some good
fun music.
As I eluded to before - playing shows in the metal scene is
something new for us. Where we are more used to playing hardcore shows - it was
odd at first to NOT see people “killing” each other... but I feel we all
believe it’s an exciting kind of odd feeling. It’s an exciting change to the
norm. I think it’s the natural progression we all are in need of. Makes me
smile to see some young metal head kids getting into the band the way they do.
It’s fun and exciting all over again. We still play hardcore shows and people
still get down and dance, but more and more metal kids have been popping up at
our shows - and it’s great.
In the
interview you did with Old Skull Zine you mentioned that more than recording or
playing out, its the writing process that you enjoy the most these days. What
would you say inspires you the most to pick up your instrument and create?
I’d say it changes from time to time. Some days I wanna pick
up my guitar and write solos and shit because I saw my friends’ band,
Penitentiary, shredding at the last show we played together. And I can’t shred
at all - so it’ll get me looking up YouTube videos on soloing techniques....to
which I’ll pick the easiest one and steal it once in a while. But overall, my
solos are just a melodic rhythm over the riff.
But a lot of the time, it’s hearing my friends bands totally
kill it live that inspires me the most. Also the CD’s I have playing in my car
daily. They really get my juices pumping and wanting to write. There were even
some riffs I have that were totally ripped/influenced by listening to Great
Reversals “Mere Mortals” for a month straight, hahahaha. Haven’t put em’ into a
song yet, but they are in existence... recorded on my phone in my riff folder...waiting.
Sometimes when I feel my riffs are coming painfully to close
to the bands I’m listening to - I’ll throw on a Built to Spill CD, Superchunk
CD or Hot Water Music CD to distract my mind and reset a bit. I love those
three bands but I’m not gonna use the inspiration I get from those bands, to
help write riffs in this band. So it’s a good mental cleansing mechanism for
me.
Those or more recently NPR is a go to, to get my mind off a
certain band or style. A lot of the time I like the riffs that I write on the
spot at band practice better then the shit I sit and ponder on. Granted, those
riffs, I’ll take home and clean them up over the week and bring them back next
week a little more polished. But overall, just friends bands and my daily
listening. Probably similar to most people’s influence and inspiration methods.
Alright
so what's next for you guys in terms of recording, releases, or upcoming shows
you're stoked about?
We currently have 3 fully written songs ready to record. We
are hoping to complete two more and record a new EP by June. We are going to
release it on cd, cassette tape and digital this time. It’ll be on a newer Scottish
death metal label called Camo Pants Records. I’d love to do something vinyl
down the road a bit...maybe a split makes sense for that one. The new EP will
be called “Victims of the Cross” with the majority of Steve’s lyrics focusing
on religious topics.
Shows - we have a couple coming up, March 22 in Kalamazoo with
our friends in Andor - looking forward to that one. March 23 in Michigan City
(local show with all our friends’ bands) - local shows are always a blast.
Probably gonna use the rest of the time we have between now
and June to finish writing the EP and get it tight. But we are definitely
stoked to finally get a recording with our new singer Steve on it. I know he is
excited to record too. It’ll just be nice to have something recorded that
represents the current lineup.
To close
this thing out, since he's the bridge between us....most embarrassing Chris
Zibutis story.
Chris Zibutis - can’t think of anything too embarrassing.
Well, I know he came out on a West Coast tour as our merch guy for a Blood
in/Blood Out, The Killer and Bloody Sunday tour...and in Corona, California -
The Killer declared that it was “Free For All - Fuck Around Friday” and told
Chris he was the target.
They were gonna punch him in the dick. So he basically
abandoned all merch duties to assure he was protecting his “baby maker”. And I
think I remember something getting stolen from our table that particular night.
I also remember him getting out of it unscathed that night - and showing up to
a show in Chicago months and months later - to which he was told by The Killer
that “he didn’t escape ‘fuck around Friday’ and he is still gonna get it” hahahaha
so there was that.
But honestly, his biggest embarrassment is him being a Green
Bay Packers fan, hahahahaha.
Jam this shit: https://enemyofcreation.bandcamp.com/
